Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: Pondering
Date: 04-09-12 11:58
What can I do to help my daughter when she has adult emotional perceptions and understandings of social rules, manners and interactions while being in a four year old body and preschool environment with others that don't see the emotional impact of their actions and the flow on effect as she does? Therefore, she perceives that they knowingly hurt her which seems like the cruelest blow one could deal and she decides that they must dislike her intensely for such overtly injuring statements. She is emotionally over sensitive to others perceptions about her, though her one saving grace is that when I explain that she has adult understandings while the other children are still learning these things, she considers this and agrees, saying she will be more understanding of them and she would rather get hurt herself than cause hurt to another. My heart breaks. I have read "Living with Intensity" dealing with Debrowski's theories and it has helped me understand exactly where she is coming from. What I need help with is... so what can I do to help her life be less painful?
Role play with her doesn't work as she bursts into tears having to relive the situation even though we have found a solution to it. She says "I have no friends and no one likes me" but actually they all chant her name waiting for her to arrive and often kids follow her around wanting to play but because they were mean to her once she doesn't consider them a good choice for friendship.
She is generally happy, easy and delightful. She helps with jobs around the house, folding laundry (all her own clothes), rinsing dishes for the dishwasher, tidying plates away that she didn't use herself, making us a milo, making her brothers a banana smoothie etc. Gives the last biscuit to someone else and misses out herself. She seems to be very aware of what makes others happy with her and when I get upset with her she says "I love you Mum, even when you yell" (not yelling just firm voice). She has started saying we don't love her enough so she doesn't want to be in our family any more (she tells me about 20 times per day - no exaggeration - that she loves me, same for Dad and only about 3 times for her brothers) Not counting replies of love, I tell her I love her about 5 times extra per day, plus how special she is, how lucky I am to have her etc.
Also, she has been going through a morbid "What if" phase which lasted a year with DS so it has been a year with her now but doesn't seem to be letting up. What if our house burned down and everyone died? What if she lived and everyone died? Then every scenario of different family members living and dying. Where would we go, eat, sleep etc. What if she walked in the forest and saw a bear, would it eat her? No bears in NZ. But if she was in America and that happened? Same with tigers, sharks, snakes, spiders etc. What if she fell out of a plane? Car crash? Truck crash? Drowned. Various family members drowning etc. How sad would we be? How long would we cry for? Would she see grandpa in heaven. Can she go there now? Grave yards, olden day burnings at the stake, wars, hangings (she saw pictures in a history book and can read basic words) why did they do that? Why were some people poor? What if we had no money? Would we lose our house, cars, electricity, clothes, her soft toys? Can we give things to other kids who don't have anything. Can we fly to Libia and save the starving children? What if dinosaurs existed at the same time as people, would we have survived? What if we had guns, then would we survive? Guns are bad so why do we have them? Who goes to jail? Why do they go there? Why do they choose to hurt others if they know they will go to jail?
I could go on all day and this is not even a scratch on what she asks, but gives an idea. Plus she asks some of the same questions to see if the answer has changed then gives different scenarios to see if that changes the answer, perhaps trying to find a situation that would make things better. Hmmm, maybe I just struck on something. Perhaps I need to change the situation until it becomes positive and ask her "what if" questions adding in things that would make a better outcome. It's an idea and writing my thoughts down here has helped a bit.
If anyone has gone through this or has insights I would be most grateful to read about them. Sorry it's a long post. Didn't realise there was so much to say.
Hi Pondering, I can understand how hard it is for you and your daughter.
A book that could be useful is 'Smart parenting for smart kids' by Elaine Kennedy-Moore...when I read it about my son's emotional intensity (he is also four) I thought there were a heap of strategies that are useful..some for now and lots for when he is a bit older. She suggests things like taking one of the what if questions and working out what is the worst that could happen and how likely is it that it would happen and things like that to put it in perspective for the child. I haven't explained it well but the book made sense to me!
I am just reading 'Raising your spirited child' by Mary Sheedy Kurckina and I hadn't planned on reading it as I thought my son wasn't spirited in a difficult sense but after lots of recommendations I got it and realised that the spirited is about intensity and emotional intensity is a large part of it and its a really good read.
I've recommended books as you've already posted one you read so I figure books are useful for you. I am muddling my way through the same kind of issues so haven't got the best personal advice for you (yet) but you are welcome to email me if you just want a personal chat with someone who understands. With my son I am just trying to be more available to being with him, listening but not exaggerating his anxieties and finding ways to explain to him in calm times the ways he can manage his emotions when he is feeling overwhelmed.
He is learning to stop and think whether what he thinks is happening (ie - a child chasing him to hit him with a stick) is really what is happneing (ie - a child holding a stick and running in a nearby location) :)
We get all the worries of the world at bedtime and so have factored in this time to talk before bed (so into bed at least 20 minutes earlier) instead of just shutting him down.
We also add in a lot of humour where we can ..like when he is upset that he wants to go to South America but he cant because he is scared of jaguars (true concern) - I may respond with something like, "Yes and you'd get off the plan and the jaguars would all be there to meet you at the airport and they'd have their knifes and forks ready". You have to know your child can handle it but my boy loves it and then he'd add they would bring tomato sauce and it could go on and on, and then he would work out for himself that its not actually very likely to happen!
Re: Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: bc
Date: 05-09-12 11:35
Hi, no advice, but just wanted to let you know we have similar issues. My son has always been intense, and now he is at school is finding it harder to fit in. He takes things that kids say to heart, and has quite low self esteem. Most days he isolates himself at school now which breaks my heart. He sometimes tells me hes a dumb kid, and needs a crazy amount of reassurance from us that we love him. The worst was actually when he said he wished he was dead, but I actually told he on no uncertain terms he was not allowed to say that, because I didn't want that to become a 'thing' that he used. (Don't get me wrong, I am very caring towards him, but I find there is a fine line between allowing my son to dwell on these things, and then distracting him with other ideas).
I think it comes from adult feelings/emotions when they are too young to know how to deal with them... if that makes sense. Also the deep thinking about questions, my son always does this, but my mum gave me some good advice which works a little for us....distract!!! I give a super quick answer to the question, and get out a pack of cards, or a book on a totally different topic, or switch on some music and start singing, or leave the room and do a really boring job like washing... if he follows, he has to help (which he hates haha). I suffer from anxiety and WAY overthink those scenarios, and honestly the only thing that stops me from following those depressing thoughts if keeping myself busy. Its good to teach them those self distraction techniques young. But yeah, if anyone else has advice, would love to hear it!
Re: Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: Pondering
Date: 07-09-12 13:40
Thanks so much Marse21, books are a good resource for me and I find there is always a pile of three or so beside my bed, lined up and waiting to be read after I finish the current one (all of them on gifted kids). I will definitely look up those books and try the techniques you mentioned in the meantime. I like the "worst case scenario" and "how likely" it is, also the tomato sauce had me laughing and probably would with her too. I will email you. Thank you.
bc - nice to know there are others out there. Also, helpful to know it doesn't get better at school so I need to work through this beforehand. Distraction I have tried but doesn't work with her, she gets more distressed because I'm not listening. Then she has silent tears that she tries to hide from me and works herself into a shaking, silent sobbing, inconsolable mess.
I have started preempting her by gauging her feelings based on her expression. When I ask her about her day and she frowns as she thinks, I tell her not that thought, something positive please. She thinks some more and her face relaxes and I say, great thought, lets start there. I get a blow by blow description right down to what people said, did, felt etc. That seems to help a bit. But it is so tough to ease her mind so I think those books may help.
Re: Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: bc
Date: 09-09-12 21:11
Also, just a thought that works for me, is rescue remedy - its a natural kind of remedy that eases anxiety, helps me to move on in my head if that makes sense? I don't really use it on my son, as he is quite obsessive about things like that, and would want it every day/night, but it genuinely helps me break the bad thought cycle. Its a really hard one, because I reckon as my son gets older, his ability to be more dramatic and play on it a bit more has increased, so perhaps the books etc will give you some more strategies to try now before you get to that point. But I do always worry about dismissing his thoughts or not listening enough, its such a hard balance!
I also think, and this is harder than it sounds, that helping your kid to find a passion, or something that makes them really really happy, helps a bit. Both my kids love music and dancing around, I am trying consciously to give my son lots of hobbies to fill his time, making sure his brain is always extended, as I find when he is bored, the bad thoughts are worse. I just found there was literally only so many times I could discuss what I think will happen to us when we die etc, so I have a wee 'mantra' that I repeat about what I do know, and honestly admit to him that I don't know the rest. We are lucky I think that our family has a faith based perspective, as it brings him comfort. Good luck! If I allow myself to think about it, I could still have an anxiety attack about the world running out of resources, or something equally ridiculous, but it gets somewhat easier with age haha!
Our 11 year old DD has been through the 'What if?' right on bed time, it's not so bad now but it's was terrible for a long long time. She still has nights like that now and then.
I spent a lot of energy many years ago working out how to turn her very intense and looong question sessions back on to her. I gave some answers and then asked her what she thought. She actually had a much better ideas on how to solve the issues than I did and her ideas were wonderfully out there. I think it has helped make her see that she has this wonderful ability to work these things out without relying on someone to do it for her. A skill I hope will see her well as she grows up.
I've also found that a lot of the time there was a reason behind the question. It would take me another 40 questions to finally get to bottom of things. The question ‘would I move to a place like that?’ when driving past a retirement village, was actually a concern (I didn’t figure out until 25 minutes later mind you!) that her grandparents who are both in their 80 may not be able to look after their house and themselves forever and what would happen then. So we started giving a quick answer then asking 'why do you ask?' before she could move onto the next 'yes, but what if'. It didn't always work but a lot of times it shortened the question session by getting to the crux of the situation sooner.
One other thing I found I needed to do after a few evenings of very emotional questions nights was to say that 'you had time for questions last night, tonight isn't a questions night, we will have question night again tomorrow/soon'. I realised the toll it was taking on me and decided that I gave her a lot of time and energy but had to think of myself every now and then. Getting my head around the fact that I was allowed to do that was the hardest thing. And really, I think this was a turning point for me as I realised that even though I seem to help with lowering her anxiety, I never really solved anything for her as she always had another worry to talk about, and another and another and another :-). I focussed on the times when she was obviously a happy, well adjusted kid (although sometimes that seemed to be rare) and tried not to 'buy into' the emotional 'what if' discussions.
I also, as Marse21 mentioned, use a lot of silliness and humour! Troubles with teachers had me turning them into frogs, and asking if that would help. Trouble with friends ‘that had no possible solution!’ had us talking about 'oh well you'll just have to sit in a corner with a pink fru fru dress on and do nothing' (she hates pink). Sessions then at least finished with her with a smile on her face.
And believe it or not, DD in question just walked past and out of the blue asked 'Mum do think think it’s ok for a school not to be bringing you to your full potential?'. That wasn't the exact wording as it was much more sophisticated language than that as everything always is. But an illustration of the fact that it doesn't stop :-). This one I turned back on her and said 'no, not really, why do you ask?' Now she is planning to talk to her GATE teacher about her frustration with her extension writing class! Phew, one down!
Sorry for the novel, but after years of struggling with this exact thing, it’s kinda nice to think I have some pointers that may help.
Good luck!! It does get easier or at least you get an arsenal that you can choose from when you need to, that makes it easier on you.
And of course I think of what else I meant to say after I click on post!
I'm also happy to email to personally chat, working through my day with constant emotional question sessions has been one of the hardest things to deal with with DD (and that no one else seemed to understand) so I'd be glad to just talk it out :-)
Re: Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: Pondering
Date: 15-09-12 09:56
bc, she has an all consuming passion which she adores and then asks all of the negative questions about that too. Her hurting herself while having fun, what if this and that happened while she was doing her favourite thing. Ahhhg. I've heard good things about that rescue remedy. Must try it. Thank you. Yes, boredom could be a precursor. Too much time to think. She is reading and wants to learn spelling and maths. I should get her focused on that.
Thanks Jubee, it helped to hear about your daughter's "what if" questions and the way that you had to find out what the real issue was. Their minds do draw parallels that are not immediately apparent. I will try that technique with my DD and see where we end up.
Also the break from questions is a good idea. I remember asking my Mum so many questions that when I was about 9yrs she told me "Stop asking questions!" in an annoyed and abrupt voice. Having high empathy I thought I had somehow offended her and so I resolved to never pester her with questions again and that would make her happy. And just in case other adults felt that way, I decided to not ask anyone questions since it was probably upsetting them too, including my teachers. Needless to say I stopped learning, started falling behind in class and ended up in the first year of high school getting straight D's. Only as an adult was I able to realise that my Mum probably just meant to stop asking questions today, or for the next hour. I am always careful to be very specific with DD about her questions. Yes questions are great, negative focused questions can lead to negative experiences, so although they are good to find answers to, we release the fear and worry linked with them and replace it with positive imagery. She is only four but she understands, giving me examples of her positive thoughts and focus after we have worrying questioning talks. I will try the break idea too.
Humour is one area I'm not so good at, but I have a very good imagination so giving her funny visual impact stories like turning teachers into frogs would be easy enough.
Thanks everyone for your help and ideas. That's just what was needed. Any more are welcome too.
Another way to get a break from the questions that we use is, to say 'I love that you ask so many questions and it's really great how you want to know so much about everything but mummy's brain is a bit tired, 2 more questions then it needs a rest. Have a think about the 2 really important things you want to know, ask me those, then you have to find something else to do for a while'. Saying this took the angst out of the situation before I got to the end of my tether and said something very similar to what your mum used to say to you :-).
A similar thing also worked well when our daughter challenged every (and I mean every) instruction we gave her. She was allowed 4 or 5 'challenges' a day where I would discuss the reasons behind what I asked her to do/not do all other instructions shes had to follow without discussion. This worked great because she had to think every time whether she wanted to use up one of her 'challenges' now or save them for later. Most of the time she saved them up cause nothing was THAT important and then never got round to using them!
Re: Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: Tiz Me
Date: 23-09-12 03:28
Gosh so much of that could have been about my grandson ..... except he would let kids hurt him (I mean really nasty bite marks - kick his shins etc ) and not make a fuss at all because "They are just learning they dont really understand yet" ! Made me want to cry.
We had the "you dont love me - dont want to be part of this family" but only very briefly - but our "guess what"? game and nightly routine remained and seemed to snap him out of that one. "Guess what" is a race to see who can say "I love you" (words or actions) then whoever is the slowest has to say "I love you too" often followed by who loves who more .... which he only rarely wins and is ever so proud when he does. Every night "Night night, love you, see you in the morning, sleep well" is a repeating chorus that lasts as long as it takes me to get up the hallway and close the lounge/hall door behind me.
Like Jubes, I dealt with "what if's" with a combination of some answers and encouragement to use his own problem solving skills to come up with solutions - I made a point of treating them like any other of his 10 gazzillion questions (stayed emotionally neutral about the nature of the question itself) - occasionally he reverts to his former OSH role - and becomes pre-occupied with health and safety - but has been much better since we changed houses and he changed schools.
I have only raised GT kids so it all seems very "normal" to me .... my eldest I worried about her being such a "golden child" it just didnt seem normal or natural - surely it couldnt be healthy being THAT good all the time (was normal and natural for her) .... the next I worried I had given birth to the demon spawn from hell and what bride of satan parent I must be that she would be that way ..... my grandson well I have the benefit of knowing that both my children survived me as a parent and I am sure he will too - Ive learned that I dont need to get it all right all the time - and that there is a great deal that kids will "resolve" in their own time and own way with us just supporting them doing so.
Mostly I have learned not to worry as to whether the behaviour is "normal" but rather whether its "normal for this child" - there is nothing "abnormal" about my grandson being melancholy or being preoccupied by what many would regard as "morbid" concerns .... he is multidimensional - has many different characteristics and qualities some of which seem in direct opposition to each other. But - when hes in tears punching himself and calling himself stupid ..... well I know there is "something else going on".
Re 'having no friends" - dont know if its any help but I grew up never feeling like I REALLY had any friends and that no one liked ME although I was quite a popular child - none of those kids actually really KNEW me - I really was all on my own. Friendship to me is about really knowing a person and liking them and wanting to be around them anyway! Not about hanging out with someone just because you have fun doing so.
IOW friendship meant something different to me other than how many other kids wanted to hang around me.
But back then, its not something I could have articulated for lack of terms of reference - its not like anyone would think to sit down with a kid and discuss depths of friendship with them in order for them to have the language to articulate available.
Maybe in a sense your daughter is actually right about having no friends - despite it appearing otherwise?
Re: Emotionally advanced & sensitive girl, happy but morbid patch
Author: Pondering
Date: 24-09-12 22:50
It is reassuring to read of other experiences out there. Thanks Jubee for the "5 challenges" idea, great one! I'll use that on DS too :-) Thank you TizMe for saying that "this is normal for this child" because I have slowly begun to realise that however my kids are is just right for them and there is nothing wrong with exactly the way they perceive, believe and achieve the goals in their life.
I am starting to love everything about my kids whether I think it is tough to deal with or not. Interestingly, DS has settled and DD is showing some true grit. Instead of keeping the peace at all costs while DS wreaks havoc, the roles have reversed. Possibly she sees that it is now safe for her to have a rant... either that or I'm in for an interesting ride of tantrums, answering back, ignoring and procrastination which is all new in the last two weeks since beginning this thread.
She is starting to be stronger with the kids as kindy and I'm giving her tips on body language that says "you can't pick on me". It seems to be working and each time she's strong she gets as treat when she gets home.
The friendship thing is likely true, as TizMe said having a lot of friends hang around and finding true friendship is entirely different. We talk about friendship a lot and she asked yesterday "What exactly is love and how do we know if we love someone?" then linking on from there came the what if questions again, what if no one wants to marry her, what if she loves them but they don't love her etc etc. And wanted to know all about our wedding, so I got out the album and she spent half an hour looking at it and asking lots of questions about the day and people's thoughts and feelings.
Also she said she wanted to know everything about how babies are made. I asked her to be more specific but she said she couldn't narrow it down because she really did want to know everything! So I found an internet pregnancy site showing the developing fetus from fertilisation of the egg through to an animated side view of the birth with the mother being partly see-through so you can see the realistic looking baby inside. She said that answered everything then one week later came back with "How did the sperm get from the man's testicles into the ladies womb?" Errrr, right... she's just turned four and her conceptual understanding is so adult-like that I sometimes forget her age. I told her what a friend had told me her mother said to her, "When two people love each other they fit together like a jigsaw puzzle and that's how it happens." She was happy and walked away. I'm worried about the next question! I may just have to tell her that she is too young to know more at this point. She keeps me on my toes.
I'm getting used to this active intellectual family dynamic and there is never a dull moment. Thinking I kinda like it that way though.
I also have a highly sensitive and gifted daughter.
Here is what has helped me.
I have told her sometimes friends want to play with you and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they act like friends and sometimes they don't. PARTCULARLY girls.
When another child does something that "hurts' your childs feelings it is not because they WANT to hurt her. They are just being kids.
Self Esteem is very important. Yes she has different expectations of peoples behaviours and how they relate to her, but it is important to express that people act the way they act and it has nothing to do with her. She does not need to change who she is or how she feels, but just not to judge their behaviours as some slight against her.
She is perfect just the way she is and some days she will want to play with x,y,z and other days she might want to play with a,b and c. That doesnt make her a bad person or MEAN, it just is the way it is. This is reality in all areas of our lives - right into adulthood. We don't always want to spend EVERY minute with the SAME people. We change and move fluidly through our interactions in the course of a day, week, month etc
It seems as though her perception of how they look at her is different from reality. If nobody liked her there would be no chanting of her name when she arrives. I know from my own experience with my daughter who is now 9 (and still highly sensitive) - it has been amazingly helpful to just say "you know, sometimes your friends want to play with you and sometimes they don't" - very matter of factly.
When she started to get that it was just about kids being kind of fickle and not about her, she started to really create new bonds and confidences.
Wishing you luck and I appreciate how your heart breaks when you see her struggle. Best wishes
zansie
