Hi all, my 7.5yr old boy is an excellent reader (and comprehension), but has difficulty with writing (neatly!), letter and numeral reversal, bunching, slow, is frustrated by quality and resistant to writing - there are also school issues with distractability, following instructions, self-organisation, task completion, quarrels with other kids and such. He is typical of those described as having 'over-excitabilities' (or intensities) often associated with gifted folk and I thought left handedness was contributing to writing difficulties. His school has referred me to the DORE centre. I have looked at what it offers. I have also found information about the HANDLE programme and another similar course noted in the message forum. I am now of the view an exercise programme to enhance particular neurological functions which may be delayed or impaired might assist him, but am undecided as to what to pursue for him.
My questions to the forum are - have any of you put your gifted and 'intense' child through a DORE exercise course (essentially occupational therapy to improve cerebellum function)... How did you find actually doing the course? And, did you see improvement in fine motor skills, concentration, organisation or social relationships (yes, the claim is this course helps social relations as they are better able to manage intuitive and emotional responses and so gets along with other kids better).
Please let me know if you are able to recommend the programme, or if you found it difficult to implement (10mins in the a.m. and in the p.m. every day for a year is quite a commitment) or did your child resist doing the exercises.
Hello Jane
When I read your first paragraph, I thought, "yep, that's just like my daughter when she was that age". To be honest, I never "did" anything about it then. The teacher at the time did not think it was a big problem. Now at 10, she still reads very well and lots of it. Writing is not too good and certainly not her favourite, but she gets by. Her spelling is good, when she thinks about it a bit, but when writing she still makes mistakes.
Sorry, not much advice here, but I think that some of these problems are also "outgrown" eventually. There has been a lot of discussion in this forum about writing, which may be worth reading. I think it's "chugs' or "tiz me" who often writes about this (and visual spatial) and about using typing rather than writing by hand. Worth having a read!
On the social front, things have improved a lot for us, lots of talking on my part and some "role-playing" and giving her the "words" to use in certain situations.
My daughter remains very distractable and not terribly organised, typical of a VS child. One word commands rather than lengthy and multiple directions help me to get her organised, especially in the mornings. (plus her very organised and bossy little sister!!! lol). Some reading on visual spatial children may help you too.
I am not suggesting that we ought to neglect to teach handwriting skills to all spatial children entirely - merely that we ought not risk compromising neurological integrity for the sake of "fixing" an area of "weakness".
Keyboards allow one to perform a sequential task in a spatial manner - the physical actions are in accord with spatial processing and will actively help to strengthen the spatial neurological pathways of spatial individuals thus assist them with developing more effective and efficient overall functioning without risking compromising neurological processes that are specific to that style of processing.
The physical task of writing by hand is neurologically incompatible with spatial processing - it causes "internal conflicts". The more writing by hand one does, the greater the degree of conflict and the greater the likelihood it will detrimentally affect other areas of functioning. (Spatial individuals process ALL information - be it physical, emotional, psychological or logical the exact same way - what affects one area affects all areas).
Once upon a time, handwriting was very important indeed - and professional success depended upon it - so there was understandably, a very strong emphasis on that in schools. Nowadays there is very little handwriting required of an adult and even less so of those with a genuine weakness in that area.
Children with a genuine weakness in the area of handwriting are entitled to access to tools that will assist them to perform at the level they are capable of and not be held back from achieving because of a weakness in one area.
I enter postal competitions on a regular basis, something which I started purely to allow me to apply myself to small amounts of sequential writing (by hand) and follow through on a regular basis - but not so much that it would interfere with my normal neurological processes - and so that I would expose my family to that (role modelling) - the less I write by hand, the less difficulty I have doing it well and the less inclined I am to procrastinate or avoid the task when there is a genuine need.
It was hard to give myself permission to adopt that approach but, doing so has made a HUGE difference to my quality of life and to my ability to use my natural faculties. It was hard to give myself permission because it goes against the way I was raised. I was raised with the focus on "fixing" perceived weaknesses - through that I didnt learn how to "overcome" ... I learnt how to struggle my way through life instead of using my brain to get around unnecessary struggle.
Having spent considerable time listening to and observing people in general and children particularly, I have come to the conclusion that there is an inbuilt "intuitive" awareness in children of tasks that are helpful or counter-productive and that that awareness is actually more reliable (at this stage anyway) and insightful than our current "scientific knowledge".
(That is not to suggest that some professionals dont develop considerable skill and insight themselves - but most will just stick to whatever is the most popular "scientific view" of the moment).
Our children start out with inherant ability to show us what direction will be most beneficial to them as an adult - the pathway to THEIR happiness and THEIR success by showing us where their strengths and natural inclinations lie .... we, unfortunately, for the most part, arent so well skilled when it comes to understanding what they show us and responding accordingly.
A child shows us his sports aptitude and we focus on his lack of writing skills, he shows us he is a brilliant writer and we focus on his lack of aptitude in math, he shows us his amazing aptitude for math and we focus on his lack of sporting prowess ..... and we move toward what we focus on (their lack of aptitude) - often managing to drag them along with us or, ending up at odds with them because they intuitively understand that to focus on what they are good at and comes naturally would serve them much better.
While i cant comment specifically on the DORE programme - physical activities such as balancing and jumping (examples only) are likely to be beneficial to children who are spatial rather than sequential and help to further develop their spatial neurological pathways - but, any parent could do those sorts of things with their child (without paying a small fortune where such programmes are costly).
The main area I can see in such a programme (provided it doesnt focus on the area of weakness itself and is in keeping with ones neurological and cognitive orientation) is with regards to confidence - both VS and GT seem especially vulnerable to the biochemical response to lack of confidence which can impact dramatically on their ability to function in any given area (or generally) - here, perception is paramount ..... if your son has confidence in the process itself and those implementing the process themselves, then, if confidence is detrimentally affecting ability to function, there should be a significant "placebo effect" even if the programme itself doesnt do what is intended.
I would personally be very heistant about going down the DORE route.
I am not basing this on personal experience, but the programme, it's finanical adminsitration, it's research base, litigious approach, and other things are resoundingly dealt with here http://www.badscience.net/category/dore/
and most recently:
http://www.badscience.net/2008/06/rock-and-roll/ (title is misleading)
The badscience website is written by a Guardian journalist and doctor and i think the columns are often reproduced in the Guardian, so there is an assurance of fact-checking behind his columns. He is very critical of the general media's approach to the programme, which appears to have been highly gullible and poor quality.
My understanding is the the programme is expensive. It sounds as if the business has gone into voluntary administration (liquidation?) in both Britain and Australia leaving staff and families out of pocket. If nothing else, I would be very cautious about committing money until you establish their finanical robustness in NZ.
It sounds as if their research claims and theory are dodgy, and you should take them with a large grain of salt. There are certainly people who feel they've been helped a lot by the programme, but it seems possible that a cheaper movement-based programme or professional might achieve the same results.
The Perceptual Motorskills Programme (think that's the name) might be helpful. In Auckland, Glynis Brummer teaches this. She is a former teacher, experienced with gifted children, and recently spoke at the NZAGC Early Years conference. There is a posting on the Forum from Glynis which explains PMP - think it is either in this section or in the Services for Gifted Children section.
I don't have contact details for her, but I know she is in the Howick/Meadowlands area.
There are some very good exercise programme that help children with learning difficulties. I work with the INPP programme developed by the Institute for Neurophysiological Psychology in the UK. Peter Blythe and Sally Goddard-Blythe have done extenseive research into the effects of neurological dysfunction and leaning.
I completed a Diploma in Neurodevelpmental Delay through the Institute and am now their only Licentiate in New Zealand. The programme is very gentle and we have had very good results. For more information see www.inpp.org.uk and www.smartlearning.co.nz.
I am based in Howick, Auckland. You can contact me on 021 144 1412.
I would be happy to explain the programme in more detail and to be of any assistance that I can. Helping children with learning difficulties is my passion.
Goodness Jane, you sound as though you are describing my 8.5 year old son. I would love to talk to you sometime on the phone. For the past 17 months we have been doing the DORE programme but they have definitely gone into liquidation. We have been left out of pocket and incredibly disappointed. The programme was such a huge financial committment and now we are never going to get to finish the programme or see just what the end results might have been. It is so upsetting to write about this, have contemplated going to Fair Go about it. Anyway would love to talk sometime especially if you are in Christchurch.
I didn't commit my son to the DORE programme (as couldn't find evidence to back its claims and high financial and time commitment), and the risk of liquidation was on the horizon - but I did get him to undertake a personalised course of exercises 'prescribed' by an "Integrated Learning Therapy" therapist in Lower Hutt (she has a website, if interested).
We only did the exercises properly for the first 10wks - took about 20mins an evening - then my circumstances changed and we again had less time in the evening and we essentially didn't do the exercises very regularly, but off and on for the rest of the past year... However within that first three months, the reversing of letters and numerals diminished and is not evident at all in his writing anymore (at 8.5yrs maybe this would have come right over this time anyway, my own problem with b and d, I recall, was overcome at about 9yrs).
However, in addition, over Christmas holidays, several different families we visited, who hadn't seen him for some time made comments to me about how much 'calmer' he was - which was a huge surprise to me - I hadn't noticed, as perhaps this calming had been gradual - and I had never thought him overly exuberant anyway (I think I have a high tolerance and empathy for folk with intensities - this boy isn't that different from his father or his mother after all!).
So now, a year later, having tinkered with the exercises off and on for about 9 months, and continuing to visit the ILT lady every 2mnths - where she assessed he has been making improvements but where needed more focused exercise and so prescribed more of same, dropped some and provided different exercises - which we continued to do some times but not very often really - he still clearly has other dysgraphia symptoms - but seems to be coping with writing tasks better, doesn't seem to have to do very much though - and doesn't think he has a problem with writing anymore - although, he doesn't complete the written 'basic facts' tests in school within the time given, but then he does refuse to do rote learning.
I note he is a confident typist at home, he also chooses to make written lists. Yes, he is strongly visual spatial, but also wants to be able to write well, and was hugely frustrated with limited competence - so overcoming the difficulties he has with writing is important. He seems to be getting along better with this years (male) teacher - I don't know if that is because he is fitting in better (calmer), behaving better (managing his emotional responses or ignoring triggers), or if this teacher is just better at differentiation and accommodating (or is it tolerating) him (seems to be the case) - so maybe it is a combination - but I am not getting the usual stream of complaints from school this year.
To conclude then, I think the 'exercise' therapies have contributed to overcoming learning difficulties (associated with neurological function) - but it is still costly (not as much as DORE though) and is time consuming - and I was right to be skeptical about our ability to persist at doing them - as they take at least 20mins 5days/wk - but, as we continued to attend, we have the 'prescribed' exercises and can continue to do them at our own pace, as motivation and time allows.
Otherwise, my biggest concern is what I can only observe as a complete lack of assistance or support from the school to addressing the same learning difficulties, and unwillingness to attempt the usual recommendations for assisting a child with dysgraphia or to mitigate other issues (e.g. why not screen his desk so he can focus on his own work, why not allow ear muffs to reduce noise distraction, why not allow a laptop for writing stories or to complete 'basic facts' test?).
School seems to persist with the view that the only way to overcome writing difficulty is to keep beavering away at it - and so last year, while we embarked on ILT at home, his teacher made "to write neatly" the number one focus of his education in school... so he spent most of the year being got at about random use of capitals and lower case, lack of punctuation, no gaps between words, huge or non-existent margins and squishing up at end of line, sloping lines, etc - and he continues to do these things in his writing - but sometimes his writing is fine... and, his lists, done voluntarily at home as they contain what ever he is interested in, are beautifully written - so I think the 'problem' is contextual.
Some bad or extreme behaviors are based in frustration due to perceptual differences. I just had a major breakthrough with a 13 year old daughter who has "exploded" on a regular basis since early days.
We visited a "behavioral optician" on advice of a friend of a friend and he observed that her corneas were more "pointed" by a measurable amount than average. This caused the muscles controlling the lense of the eye to move around trying to get the lense in the right position to catch the refraction that was happening "too far in front" of the lense. Apparently anything she looked at close up "moved" randomly in terms of what she saw.
He prescribed corrective lenses and the first thing she said on trying a read with the lenses yesterday was "amazing! The words just lie on the page instead of jumping around!"
She had had several vision checks in her life but never by someone with this expertise. She had a terrible time learning to read. We finally spent much money on an exclusive 6 months with a Lindamood-Bell trained specialist so that she could finally really read at age 11. If we had found the problem sooner much grief and expense would have been avoided.
There are also "behavioral audiologists" but I do not know one here in New Zealand.
This is in reply to just about every string in this group of emails. My now 12 year old gifted son is driving me mad. I have read all letters above and he's a copy of all of these issues with hand writing vs keyboard, problems with rote learning, lack of ability to concentrate (except of course if he finds the subject interesting) etc....... I see above long note from Tiz Me. I am currently struggling with helping my child to organise himself. He leaves his spelling book at school, oh sorry! I actually left it at home! (this to the teacher) and getting home, no! Definitely at school! Is he pulling my leg or seriiously confused! I think a bit of both. But I can't seem to find the consequence which works to get him to get himself organised and I realise I can't keep doing it for him. I've tried many things over the years; lists, star charts, time on computer etc. The one that I feel he needs to learn to use is a diary. I've trialed a number of diarys with him, none have stuck although he goes into each exercise with boundless enthusiasm! Is there a magic trick out there that I'm missing? I have 3 children, my 10 year old is high level special needs (ASD in some form, as is the eldest) with very little language. The 5 year old I think is a regular child although I'm not sure! I subsequently don't have anything like the amount of time I would like to have to trawl the internet for a creative, winning solution to helping my wonderful, absent-minded 12 year old organise himself sufficiently to get through life. Can anyone help me to narrow the pathway to some help? By the way, it's wonderful to hear people speaking of disgraphica. I was quite convinced that was 12 year old's issue but the school would not consider it. I suppose they get lots of panicky parents and at that point they had not had my 10 year old! Any pointers would be great.
Claire
My eleven year old son sounds exactly the same as yours. He has been assessed as ADHD. His behaviour is fine most of the time, so most people think the diagnosis is wrong, but that's because they don't know what they're talking about. He takes Concerta which helps his ability to focus immensely. Medication seems like a big step, but for us we had to weigh up the 'unproductive learning time' versus our predudice about medication. There are some kids who have side effects but the only side effect my son has is reduced appetite during the day.
There is such a stigma about ADD and ADHD that some people refuse to accept it. For us the solution has been a revelation and a relief.
ps. I took my son out of school and homeschooled for a short period to conteract the negative effect the schools misunderstanding of his needs had had on him.
Hi Jane. I notice your original message was written a long time ago now. I wonder how things are going for you.
My son is the same age now that your son was back in 2008. Your description was word for word an accurate description of my son.
I cannot help you with DORE, however we have been helped enormously by Gymbaroo which I know operates in New Zealand. According to the neurological consultant we saw, the problem is infant reflexes that are automated. These are normally overridden by manual control as the child begins to move around. Crawling for example is a critical activity. When they aren't overridden it causes havoc. Our child needed to go back before crawling to the squirming stage. I had the priviledge of meeting Margaret Sasse, the founder of Gymbaroo. She was an extraordinary woman.
The Gymbaroo program works with babies to pre-school children to educate parents about the neurological system in order to prevent the exact sort of problems that our sons have. Even though our son is past the age of the Gymbaroo program it is still possible to make an appointment to see a consultant through head office.
The exercises take 30 minutes a day and are reviewed about every 6 weeks. The fees are expensive but only because consultations are off necessity lengthy. However the difference in our child after only 6 weeks were extraordinary - had to be seen to be believed. To catch him up neurologically and lock in the changes however could take 12 to 18 months. When I see his suffering at school and all the problems that have occurred this year, particularly with the complication of intellectual giftedness, I will do anything to find the money and the time.
My son is almost 8, he had most of those symptoms I read in these messages. A year or so we met Glynis Brummer "Author: Glynis Brummer
Date: 11-06-09 09:17
There are some very good exercise programme that help children with learning difficulties. I work with the INPP programme developed by the Institute for Neurophysiological Psychology in the UK. Peter Blythe and Sally Goddard-Blythe have done extenseive research into the effects of neurological dysfunction and leaning.
I completed a Diploma in Neurodevelpmental Delay through the Institute and am now their only Licentiate in New Zealand. The programme is very gentle and we have had very good results. For more information see www.inpp.org.uk and www.smartlearning.co.nz.
I am based in Howick, Auckland. You can contact me on 021 144 1412.
I would be happy to explain the programme in more detail and to be of any assistance that I can. Helping children with learning difficulties is my passion.
Glynis"
...and my sons behavior, social skills, academics are age appropriate, he is a well balanced child. The program is not that expensive, 3 min exercise a day, reviews every 8 weeks. We did combine the exercise with JIAS sound therapy.
