I'd like to ask if others may have experience with trying to determine if their children are gifted, ADD or both! I have had Woodcock Johnson testing done on my 8 year old when in year 3 I felt she was stagnating with her writing and not progressing at all with spelling. In fact the spelling was the main concern. She would often get all the letters required but in the wrong order i.e. bule for blue. She often refused to write at all. Said she felt unable to start and could get really angry at home if pushed to at least get something down on the page.
She tested on the 97th percentile overall. IQ 130. She read early about 4yrs and now reads at a 12 year old level. The person who administered both the cognitive and achievment tests suggest gifted/ADD from the total results seen.
Anyway I am very hesitent to go exploring down the drug path and really want to ask if any others have experienced huge inmprovements with spelling and writing ability because of the drugs or if over time and with maturity in their children (and with some 'loving' help and guidence) have seen the spelling/writing problems improve to a point where you aren't as concerned anymore.
I'm worried for her and can't stop thinking about how to find a way forward.
It does sound like you have a lot to cope with at the moment! I too would be very wary of going down the medication route.
Some reading you could consider:
"Talking Back to Ritalin" by Peter Breggin
"The Edison Trait: Saving the Spirit of your Non-conforming Child" by Lucy Jo Palladino
"Misdiagnosis and Dual diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults" by Webb et al.
Remember that some people never learn to spell well - they're just not wired to be good spellers! My Grandfather was caned every day of his school life for getting his spelling wrong, left school at 14, got a degree through night school, then went on to become very prominent in his profession. There are lots of examples of gifted individuals who couldn't spell, so try not to get too hung up on the spelling thing. Her resistance to writing could well be because she expects people to use it to come down on her for the spelling thing, rather than it being about whether she has anything interesting to say.
A writing programme you may find useful is called "The Writer's Jungle" by Julie Bogart at www.bravewriter.com.
Personally, I think it just comes down to the fact that she is not very phonetically aware.
It is VERY common for a child who relies on sight (not phonics) to get the letters around the wrong way. Either that (and sometimes as well) they come up with some REALLY interesting ways of spelling words. Ways that aren't even close.
You could simply teach her more about phonics and the rules of our language.
If you would like to teach her yourself, you could look at this site www.catphonics.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk which provides about 100 steps for free.
I admit that until I taught my own son to read using synthetic phonics my spelling was, well, shocking. I was exactly like your daughter (but as an adult!) Now I have more confidence in my spelling and can actually tell the difference (and correctly choose) between words like diary/dairy, loose/lose!
What other behaviours are you seeing that would suggest ADD? Has your daughter regressed in her spelling? Is she visual spatial? My son aged 5yrs has mild ADD and was tested as gifted (97th percentile) - he is a very good reader but his spelling is not so good....
Other behaviours observed include: forgetful/disorganised and very messy in her approaches to all tasks. Her desk at school is a tip, she needs constant reminding about each step of the day, have you brushed your teeth, your hair. No concept of time. Often says morning tea for afternoon tea. Hates sitting still on the mat too long, shifts and jiggles about a bit. Easily distracted in the classroom by others talking, other sounds.
At home flies off the handle quickly. Can get physical by hitting if things not going her way.
When you say your boy has mild ADD have you actually been fully diagnosed by a pediatrician?
As far as the WJ testing went she obtained scores in all of the 'cognitive tests' that ranged from average 8.5 years to >22 years.
With the 'academic testing' all her reading, oral language and comprehension results were huge but her spelling of sounds, maths calulation average. She tested very high on all fluency tests for the academic portion. Shes works very quickly which is where errors creep in. For the maths she 'added' two sums instead of 'subtracting' which lowered her result. Inattention was suggested by the examiner. Her visual-spatial thinking score was highish but not dramatically so. She does love art, drawing pictures, diagrams etc. You often see little pictures in her school books rather than the written work they are supposed to be doing!!!
I wouldn't say her spelling has regressed, it is erratic. She might spell something right one day and not the next.
KJ: maybe there is something in the 'not being very phonetically aware'. She certainly knows all her sounds and blends when asked orally and she is made to slow down and think carefully before answering but when it comes to that and then tagging on the writing of these sounds/words she either is going to quick or becomes bogged down in the handling of all the steps.
She often spells words quite phonetically though. I got 'cept' the other day for ' 'kept'.
Thanks Jean for the book suggestions. I will look into these.
Any other advice or stories by others on this forum are always great to read. Thanks everyone.
In my opinion, there is quite a difference between knowing some sounds and being taught to actually focus on them. In most NZ schools they aren't taught to focus on them.
Schools here generally only teach the alphabet sounds, then perhaps sh, ch, th. Perhaps over a few years they will learn some vowel digraphs ee, ea etc. But hardly ever are they taught sounds such as 'ew', 'ou', 'ow', 'ui', 'ar' etc or any rules.
In my opinion, having gone through the same problem, where all the letters are just one big muddle (which is VERY frustrating), it helps to know all the sounds and rules.
For example, the 'cept' that she wrote for 'kept' is phonetically impossible. The reality is that a 'c' next to an 'i', 'e', or a 'y' changes its sound to 's' so in actual fact she just wrote 'sept'. Think of the reason for the 'k' in words such as like, lake, bike, skip, kid etc.
The website you suggested looks very helpful.
My next challenge would be to work out a way we can practice these steps in a relaxed and happy way. I am very aware that I don't want to focus on deficits all the time and am always on the lookout for ways to show off her strengths.
You know, I really have to agree with the whole VS thing making a huge difference! With my daughter's reading for example, she looks at the first letter and MAYBE one other letter within the word and then guesses at what the word says. Also, very strangely I think, she is way better at reading long words (even if she hasn't seen them before) than short words and seems to be able to read them without sounding them out...
As far as spelling goes, she is attrocious! I get notes from her all the time and usually I'll need her help to read them - one from this morning for example was a poem...
fell (feel) swooming (swimming) butufli (butterfly) mremads (mermaids)!!!
Another couple of things to try, for my daughter's reading, I made up cards with words on one side. On the other side, my daughter would draw a picture to do with the word - usually what she see's in her head for the word. Many of the pictures are to do with food funnily enough!!!! However it is absolutely astounding how quickly she picks up the words and remembers them!
As far as spelling goes, my AP gave me this very good NLP procedure...
Hold the word up so that the child has to look up and out to their left. Say the word properly. Get them to say the word, then to spell the word. Get them to use their hands to 'write' the word in the air. Then they take a mental photograph of the word - ie look at it then snap their eyes shut. While their eyes remain shut, make them visualise the word quite strongly. Then they need to spell out the word - with their eyes shut, frontwards and backwards as they look at the word in their minds. Then they can open their eyes and write the word.
They may need help to begin with learning to visualise at will, however with practise this is an excellent way to help VS learners spell!
If you find out what sounds she actually knows (could be alphabet and sh, ch etc). Don't worry about blends, as they don't actually change their sound therefore children can spell with them or without them e.g. br-i-ck is the same as b-r-i-ck.
You could start with the sounds she knows, then add one (perhaps the first sound from that website (that she doesn't know)).
Instead of writing them you could cut up pieces of card with the letters and digraphs (two letters making one sound) on so she just has to construct, not physically write.
If you visit this site www.morewords.com and put in the sound e.g. ir, you are concentrating on, you can come up with a list of words to trial (remembering to only give her words that have the sounds that she does know so that she is constantly successful).
Anyway, hope that helps.
If you would like a copy of the 300 most commonly spelt words and how they fit into that free curriculum email me.
What you describe in the first paragraph is exactly how most children in NZ ARE taught. They are expected to recognise the word by its shape, and their initial recognition of it will be by its initial letter. What she is doing in my opinion is normal for a child taught by mixed methods.
She may be better at bigger words because there will be less of them in her books. As she has been taught to read 'by sight' a lot of words will look similar especially the letters that are three, four and five letters long. As that is mainly what she will be exposed it (think of words like then, than, them, that, this etc).
It could also be that the big word is a noun and obvious by either the picture or the general story.
It is my hypothesis that VS children/adults are actually more likely to have trouble with look-say than other children. For whatever reason, probably due to their lack of auditory skills, they do not 'crack the alphabetic code' like other children are able to naturally (to a certain degree). Therefore these children will need to be explicitly taught it.
Also the problem with learning words as a whole is that it is finite. It does not open the door to other words. You literally have to learn one word at a time.
The flip side of the coin is that learning a sound, say, 'sh' will unlock a 100 or so words: shut, fish, shot, brush, shop, crush, crash, flash, finish, fresh, mush etc.
OK, I'm finished now. I'll get off my phonics horse!
I started trying to teach C phonics - using Jolly phonics from about age 4. At school they also use Jolly Phonics. I have also tried by using Reading Reflex (which by the way is excellent!). She does know all the sounds and can sound out, I'm not sure why she doesn't do it to spell - of course laziness and a 'that'll do' attitude spring to mind... although in other ways she's such a perfectionist.
A really good reading programme is Smart Words. I've done this with J and he's finished A and on to B now. This incorporates everything from eye tracking to physically writing to memory - visual and auditory etc.
Anyway, what I'm saying is I do agree that synthetic phonics are very important to learn! But even learnt, they appear to take time and practice!
My daughter is exactly the same. She does know all her sounds. Can sound out. I do know she reads VERY quickly by scanning the text but so far this does not seem to affect her comprehension. (PAT year 3 STAR reading test: Stanine 9, 100% for 3 parts of the test.) It just seems when we come to write that she doesn't seem to pull it together. Maybe she is just trying to write the way she reads: too fast, by sight and doesn't have a highly developed internal voice sounding out in her mind as she mechanically writes the words out. Often most letters are there or it is a kind of visual representation of the word e.g. 'strawberry' has been shown as 'stawbeery'.
Then of course I still have to keep in mind this whole suggestion of possible ADD characteristics.
Still wondering if anyone out there has a story re a child of theirs that may have shown similar characteristics but with maturity managed to improve and begin to really self check their written work. Teachers keep calling her careless and lazy but it's difficult to believe that an 8yr old child truly sets out to be like this?
I guess I just wonder if with time it won't impact so much.
I can't help but keep think, "she's only eight!" In many countries children don't even start school until age seven! I think all children who read for pleasure do gradually improve their spelling etc with time, just from experience of knowing what looks right. If you feel in need of reassurance you may find some of the homeschooling literature about late readers/writers helpful. There are lots of examples of unschooling kids who weren't interested in learning to read/write until age nine or later, and once they were interested caught up very quickly and were above age/grade level within a couple of years.
In retrospect I wish I'd been a lot less paranoid about the formal learning at younger ages with my own kids. I look at them and can see how much more quickly they would learn things now, if only they felt confident and hadn't been damaged by inappropriate earlier experiences. (Like timed "basic facts" tests from year three - who the hell thought that was a good idea?) There are some things that younger children learn more easily than older children, like foreign languages, music, and generally using their imaginations and learning through experience. Why does our educational establishment not capitalise on this, but instead spend hours trying to drum algebra into babies, that they could have learnt in a fraction of the time when older? Sorry, time for me to get off my hobby horse. (Parent of school-damaged children here!)
Ha..... timed basic facts tests!!! Who needs that pressure when 8! Especially when they know they know how to churn out these facts in their own way but just don't need that time pressure.
AND how many times do you really need to repeat that pressure each week when there could be so many other INTERESTING topics to get your teeth into.
Don't get me wrong, we need a little bit of repetition in our lives and need to know that that comes with life in general (Says someone who hates the repetion of making school lunches each morning!) but at 8!
Thanks for the age reminder and the suggestions of the homeschooling stories.
It is so frustrating to have a child that is gifted but finds some areas extremely difficult to cope with. I used to keep telling myself that we all have things we need to learn and this helped with the frustration and anxiety with my three boys.
It may be worth your while to make some time ( I know from experience that time is often a commodity in short supply) to read the books - The Gift of Dyslexia and The Gift of Learning by Ronald Davis, before you consider the drug road. I have been using the methods described, with some of my students, with increasing success.
The problems described sound very familiar. In 2004, I wrote a case study of a 14-year old boy for an assignment for an Australian university. The lecturer who marked it encouraged me to publish it, as according to him there are so many children out there like the child in the case study and very little is known about the 'condition'. It turned out that 'Jack' was dyspraxic and gifted (even though he didn't complete the psych testing). Very little is commonly known about dyspraxia. Interestingly enough many parents have contacted me as the article describes 'their' child. It may be that your child has dyspraxia. Unfortunately it seems to me that a (tired) parent must be the chief advocate in their child's school years, as the system is designed for the vast majority, a system that their child must fit. To read the article visit http://www.giftedchildren.org.nz/apex/v14no1.php
There is a NZ Dyspraxia Association (www.dyspraxia.org.nz) which would give you more information about this special need.
Downunder people who know about children who are gifted and learning disabled (GLD) students include:
Australian Wendy Stewart
* more boys than girls are identified (Pendarvis, Howley and Howley: 1990; Crawford and Snart: 1994; Hishinuma: 1996a) about 80% are visual spatial learners, indicating problems with auditory sequential processing impairments (Silverman: 1994a; Van Tassell-Baska: 1992)
* a " zig zag" or "scatter" WISC pattern, showing weaknesses in the sequential skills such as coding, digit span and arithmetic, this also indicates limited working memory capacity which is affected to some extent by anxiety, so students who are anxious about their performance in a test may perform poorly (Fall and Nolan: 1993; Korinek: 1992; Silverman: 1997c; Hishinuma: 1996a
and New Zealenders include psychologist Lynne Beresford and educator Anne Sturgess, google to find more information.
There is also an excellent 2e (Twice exceptional) American newsletter available on-line at
mark@glenellynmedia.com
which focuses on a specific learning disability and giftedness in each volume. Backorders are available. They consider all disabilities - emotional, physical, learning, etc. Their positive spin on such a frustrating need is exhilerating.
Frustrating as it is for the parent, imagine the lot for a child with no advocate!
Hi Tired/Tearful Mum - my heart goes out to you. Firstly, don't despair, as you can see by the many replies there are heaps of parents in the same position as yourself.
Our son is 9 (10 in March this year) & in Yr 5. He was diagnosed as ADD at age 5 (no hyperactivity involved & just over the cut-off point of 50 - he was 55 points). We didn't really accept the diagnosis and refused to put him on Ritalin. When he was in yr 3, we had him tested by Barbara Kalshoven. He is verbally gifted & his various scores range from 37th to the 99th percentile. So there are huge differences in his various abilities. He is a Twice Exceptional child (in fact I've just sent off for a subscription ot this publication - it may help!)
I had a wee chuckle to myself when you described yr daughter's desk at school, writing etc. She sounds so much like my son. His desk is a constant tip site, he constantly giggles around & sings to himself (evidentially). I have since found out that this is the way ADD children try to stay on task. This is there way of self stimulating to keep their brain on track. He writes at a snails pace & very rarely gets much written down before the board is cleaned or it's on to the next subject at school. He is a great reader, but his spelling leaves alot to be desired. We do all we can to help. Just when we think we've got the spelling down pat, the next day, he can't remember the word! (It is slowly getting better though).
Re medication etc, we tried everything under the sun , Vision Therapy, Efolex, IQ etc, etc. We finally, bit the bullet 2nd term of last yr as he was falling so far behind at school. We put him on Ritalin. It worked wonders for the 1st two weeks until he developed severe tics (muscle spasms - which it turns out he had before we put him on Ritalin we just didn't know he had tics. Ritalin exascerbates the condition, making them worse). We took him off that & tried Strattera for a few months. This did not make any significant improvement at all & made him quite moody. We went back to Ritalin - only this time, it has not worked as well, although the tics are not quite so bad! The Ritalin seems to calm him down enough so that he can put his thoughts in order & is not as eaily distractable. We are due to go back to his paediatrician in late March - so will see if he maybe needs a slightly higher dose.
We still feel a huge guilt for putting him on drugs (& I sometimes feel he is a walking drug factory & wonder what in the hell we are putting into our week man's system). It just got to the point where clearly, he was not up to speed with the kids in his class & may never be. We had to make the decision to try!
We also take him to a SPELD tutor once a week (in the morning 8 - 9am). We have been doing this for the past 2 yrs & intend to do this for at least another yr before he goes off to Intermediate.
His writing & spelling (particuarly his writing) are very poor. You can see he tries so hard (when you can get him to write that is). It's so hard for these kids, they put in 120% every minute of every day & yet it is not necessarily acknowledged by the schools, which in turn makes it even harder for the parents.
I wish you all the luck in the world & hope this has not confused you too much. When your feeling really low, just know that you are not alone.
I have this dilemma also but my son is more Aspergers though it wouldn't surprise me if there is a little ADD and I think he is gifted. However at only 3.5yo I am waiting to test that a bit longer for a variety of reasons.
I am wondering if you have considered the 'diet' idea ? There is a lot of literature supporting a 'special' diet for ADHD/ADD and ASD kids. For the former group, the first focus tends to be food colourings, preservatives, flavour enhancers etc free and then gluten and casein free.
We have found through trial and error our son can't cope with red food colouring and we keep msg and other excitotoxins such as aspartame away. He is also gluten and casein free. We have had enormous success and from Feb to Dec, the psych assessing him for ASD has said it is getting hard to 'keep' him on the spectrum.
If you are interested you could google add diet as I did this awhile back for a friend concerned about her gifted child. There was tonnes and a specific diet for adhd/add is called the 'feingold' diet.
Then of course, there is the dore programme to consider in Auckland.
good luck- it is such a hard road meeting the needs of our kids, particularly if they don't 'fit' conventional ideas of gifted and although I am a teacher, I am getting more cynical about conventional wisdom in schools towards both gifted and ASD. Anyhow, that's another story.
I have this dilemma also but my son is more Aspergers though it wouldn't surprise me if there is a little ADD and I think he is gifted. However at only 3.5yo I am waiting to test that a bit longer for a variety of reasons.
I am wondering if you have considered the 'diet' idea ? There is a lot of literature supporting a 'special' diet for ADHD/ADD and ASD kids. For the former group, the first focus tends to be food colourings, preservatives, flavour enhancers etc free and then gluten and casein free.
We have found through trial and error our son can't cope with red food colouring and we keep msg and other excitotoxins such as aspartame away. He is also gluten and casein free. We have had enormous success and from Feb to Dec, the psych assessing him for ASD has said it is getting hard to 'keep' him on the spectrum.
If you are interested you could google add diet as I did this awhile back for a friend concerned about her gifted child. There was tonnes and a specific diet for adhd/add is called the 'feingold' diet.
Then of course, there is the dore programme to consider in Auckland.
good luck- it is such a hard road meeting the needs of our kids, particularly if they don't 'fit' conventional ideas of gifted and although I am a teacher, I am getting more cynical about conventional wisdom in schools towards both gifted and ASD. Anyhow, that's another story.
I have this dilemma also but my son is more Aspergers though it wouldn't surprise me if there is a little ADD and I think he is gifted. However at only 3.5yo I am waiting to test that a bit longer for a variety of reasons.
I am wondering if you have considered the 'diet' idea ? There is a lot of literature supporting a 'special' diet for ADHD/ADD and ASD kids. For the former group, the first focus tends to be food colourings, preservatives, flavour enhancers etc free and then gluten and casein free.
We have found through trial and error our son can't cope with red food colouring and we keep msg and other excitotoxins such as aspartame away. He is also gluten and casein free. We have had enormous success and from Feb to Dec, the psych assessing him for ASD has said it is getting hard to 'keep' him on the spectrum.
If you are interested you could google add diet as I did this awhile back for a friend concerned about her gifted child. There was tonnes and a specific diet for adhd/add is called the 'feingold' diet.
Then of course, there is the dore programme to consider in Auckland.
good luck- it is such a hard road meeting the needs of our kids, particularly if they don't 'fit' conventional ideas of gifted and although I am a teacher, I am getting more cynical about conventional wisdom in schools towards both gifted and ASD. Anyhow, that's another story.
Ummm - I showed up with having "ADD" characteristics on the cognitive assessment BECAUSE the "Digit Span" assessment assesses the STAM (short term auditory memory) and, as a visual spatial person, my short term auditory memory is not as well "developed" as my overall ability would indicate it "ought" to be.
But, I do not have add or adhd.
I would expect most VS individuals to show up with this "ADD Characteristic" on a cognitive assessment - I say most because it is possible to "compensate" so it doesnt show up - eg it is possible to remember the numbers in "tones" and "strings" that would equate to phone numbers - that is if one has a very specific "talent" in that area.
One would still have a "generalised" area of comparative "weakness" but it wouldnt necessarily show up as such.
As one who has been prescribed Ritalin in the past - I found that it did absolutely nothing to improve my STAM (Im just not geared that way) - all it did was to reduce my level of function in other areas to bring them into a similar range so there was less "disparity".
It is also very common for VS individuals to be quite "messy" my conventional standards - their perceptual organisational skills are "geared diffently" (the organisational skills primarily focused on are "auditory sequential") and unfortunately they often do not get sufficient opportunity to develop a physical organisational system that works for them.
I have great difficulty writing by hand - it is an auditory sequential task - but those problems all but disappear completely when I type - typing being a spatial task.
Oh Tiz me, your comment about typing versus writing makes the penny drop for me. No wonder I'd always felt so cumbersome about writing my ideas down (back in the days when I was at school they never ever came out how I wanted, and they sounded so clumsy; let alone the fact that my ideas were about 20 sentences ahead of where my hand writing was), until I started keyboarding. It always make me feel as though I was a bit thick, even though it is not the case. (such is the nature of perfectionism eh!)
Thank you!
Can you tell me more about perceptual organisation skills (maybe on another thread?). I'd love to hear you comments, as we have a very VS son, and I feel disturbed and unable to think if things are too tidy (which is a low risk event in our household!)
Thank you
It may not be any comfort, but our son has spent a school term on Ritalin and it does seem to have worked wonders for him.
He is gifted and started school 3 years ago already reading fluently. We thought that he would love school and that everything would go as well as it had for our older daughter.
Unfortunately things went disasterously. We moved him from his first school after they threw up their hands and said they didn't know what to do with him - he was only 5!
We started getting him assessed almost a year ago. At the time everyone (teachers, RLB, after-school care etc) was saying he was Aspergers. I think the gifted thing can look like Aspergers obsessiveness which gets people confused.
Anyway, after a fairly thorough assessment the diagnosis was ADHD. We would never have believed it, as although he is very unusual, he copes well with life at home. What was compelling, was a school observation they did.
They reported that he was virtually unable to stay on any task for more than a couple of minutes. He couldn't sit still at all, either on the mat or at his desk. It sounded like hell for the teacher.
He has always hated writing (refuses to most of the time) and doesn't like typing either although his teacher has been persistent. He had a teacher-aid for one hour a day and that, plus ODS, helped his teacher to get through the year with some sanity. After starting Ritalin in the last term, he did the first voluntary writing he'd done all year. And his teachers have assured me that he is in no way dumbed-down by the drug.
He is a dear little boy and while we feel like monsters for putting our child on speed, it has given him a chance to lead a normal life rather than be under constant seige. His school has accelerated him this year which they would never have done pre-medication. As it is I wonder how he will cope with the writing!
Sorry to be so long-winded. My advice is to make sure that any assessment is thorough before you take any action - I've heard horror stories on this forum.
Also, we have come to believe that ADHD is diagnosed by medication to a certain extent. In our son's case, a fairly low dose (10mg) in the morning seems to make for a happy and successful school day. In other children it can do horrible things.
One down-side is that he doesn't eat lunch poor child so needs a big breakfast! Good luck!!
New year, new teacher and new motivarion by my daughter. The year has started well.
Spelling group: She has been placed in the 'above average' group based on testing done in the first couple of weeks. Go figure....??!!
STAR reading test: teacher commented on her 'very strong' result. I expected this.
Maths: Pretty average, however not to concerning.
Wrtiting test: Not to bad. The teacher said: "an average looking sample". He also added it's not about quantity but quality. She used plenty of speech marks, some onomatapoeia. The story was descriptive and answered the topic they were given well. I looked at the spelling and there was certainly a few errors but nothing to bizzare, just the odd letter missing from some words. To get a full A4 page of story to me was amazing for her.
Maybe there is something to be said for the 'challenge of the testing situation' for her. Maybe she can rise to it when the situation calls for it. Maybe a good summer break has helped.
He has noticed she is easily distracted however and will be keeping on eye on this for us and keeping us informed. But at this early stage he has no major concerns.
Hi! Your daughter sounds like my son - aged nine. My son is an avid reader, is very articulate but has poor spelling and gets agitated with writing. He was just assessed by a psychiatrist for Asperger's and ADHD and is neither but is mildly AD - drugs were then offered twice. That is their solution - they are not educational psychologists and there is not a holistic approach - they do not work alongside each (pyschiatrist and psychologist) to determine an outcome and solution.
Is your daughter emotionally sensitive? affectionate? empathetic with animals? sleep walks or talks? imaginative? easily distracted? does she seem to not be able to filter out visual and auditory distractions? does she draw a circle in an anti-clockwise direction? does she have any sort of speech impediment? If this sounds like her, has she ever been tested for brain dominance? These are qualities of a right-dominant child. I am no expert on this but my son is right-dominant and I was given a book to read 'Reaching the Reluctant Learner' by Laughton King, a psychologist with an enormous range of experience with 'different' kids. He outlines the characteristics of right-brained kids and provides a variety of ways to help them at home and at school to cope with a left-dominant focused world. Let me know if you want more info. Cheers!
We found with our ADD & gifted son, that the biggest problem appeared to be an inability to slow down enough to write legibly, let alone put the letters in the right order..he just simply could not write fast enough to keep up with his thought processes. When simply spelling he could spell just about anything correctly, but when writing a story, taking notes, doing hand-written homework he was terrible....A computer helped as he can type faster than he can write.
my suggestion is to see if trying to consiously slow the thought processes down, concentrating on the current word/sentance, then pausing before the next sentance to gather ideas would help (and then reviewing/correcting afterward)
Jacob was diagnosed with Autism at 2yrs. He has progressed well and Im hoping to get ORRS funding before he starts school. He will only follow instructions if he reads them out loud. His kindy teacher believes he is gifted as he can read (by sounding each unknown word out) anything and can recite times tables up to 12. He can count up to 2000...when hes trying to calm himself down. He is well spoken but very quiet. His favourite thing to do is play on Microsoft word and computer games that are designed for 6-8 year olds. He is self taught. What should I do? Should I be researching to find a school designed for special gifted children?. Can anyone offer any advice?
His memory is incredible yet his social skills are poor. I don't feel he will fit into a public school as it will be revision for him and he will get bored due to lack of stimulation and this may cause behavioural problems...such as running away...another thing he does well.
I have a couple of personal experiences, that are unlikely to help parents decide what is best for their child but emphasises the importance of getting the decision right.
I am now 32 and unfortunately for me much of what is known about Ritalin and ADHD and Giftedness, now, was not known when I was first incorrectly diagnosed Gifted/ADHD.
I was actually highly gifted/ visual spatial.
From my own memory, before I was on Ritalin at age 7, I was not unhappy, I have looked at my Primary school report cards and they tell an obvious story. At age 6 before Ritalin was prescribed, I had 1’ s ( A’s) in every single subject, even the extra mural activities.
I was however apparently disruptive in school and in fact was bad enough to be asked to leave pre-school. Although my parents couldn’t really understand why as I was not unhappy and my behaviour at home whilst I was difficult (I think I cried non-stop from birth until I could speak-my poor parents!!), but was not disruptive or otherwise ab-normal.
A couple of years previously, my cousin had also been diagnosed but simply ADHD and was placed on Ritalin, not sure how long he was on it but he went from Nightmare to Angel and has lived a perfectly normally functional life ever since. It is difficult to dispute that it worked for him.
My parents understandably decided that it was the right thing to do for me also and I started a course of Ritalin which lasted the better part of a decade. Having looked back at my old school report cards, my performance in school went from all 1’s(A’s) to all 3’s(Failure), almost immediately after I started taking it and they never recovered even after Ritalin was stopped, I went to a posh secondary school and was going to be the only student in over 8 years who had failed their final year, I passed, just but even though I had been off Ritalin for years. The negative effects it had were permanent.
I also immediately stopped eating and became very thin to the point that the school I was at thought I was malnourished and called my parents in because they thought they might be neglecting me.
I however did also start becoming disruptive in the home environment almost immediately and my disruptiveness in the classroom, did not improve. This seemed to confirm the diagnosis of ADHD and guess what, the dose was increased.
My disruptiveness in the school environment did then improve but not at home I also became extremely lazy, depressed and always underachieved......and frankly continue to underachieve spectucularly. I am now a dysfunctional 32 year old man and I can promise you from my personal experiences that the last 32 years has been no walk in the park. Not an enjoyable one anyway.
It is a difficult decision to take and I would hate to think what I might do if my child was diagnosed only ADHD. I don’t think I would dismiss it altogether but would more than likely try another, or several non prescriptive methods first and only once you have exhausted all of those then consider prescriptive or a combination of low dose prescriptive/and therapy. Love, support, encouragement are very helpful also.
Thankfully now there is far more information available and the control measures in place do minimise the risk of misdiagnoses. But for Heaven’s Sakes be sure.......... There is not alot you can do if you get it wrong and no matter what some of the experts try and tell you, if the positive effects of Ritalin are permanent and irreversible, then its stands to reason that some or all of the negative effects of misprescription are also permanent and irreversible. No one has come to me with a miracle cure. Even though I now display a lot of the symptoms of a person suffering from ADHD. For which I was first prescribed a miracle cure. There is a miracle cure to fix what was thought to be my problem, but no miracle cure to reverse the mistake.
Your children may resent you for it even if you don’t deserve it and it will be difficult for you to try and justify that you were trying to do what was best for them. It is important to remember that the prescription of Ritalin is as a result of yours or someone else’s perception of the child’s behaviour and the needs of the parents or school to bring normality to the parents or schools life, not always the child’s. Unfortunately if your child is given Ritalin at age 5 or younger, in ten years time they will not be able to tell you if they are happier now than they were before they were placed on Ritalin because they will have no real memory of that time. Some children are prescribed at age 3 and I cant see that you would ever know if the child needed the drugs or if they had a negative effect, because if you give a normal child Ritalin they will develop ADHD symptons very quickly making it difficult to identify the mistake later. No doubt if you tried suing your Doctor for misprescribing the drug and your child’s brain was cooked for life, your child would be in his late teens by the time you knew about it and his laziness, depression and tendency to became chemically dependent would be blamed on your divorce or financial problems or some other factor.
The argument used by some is that there is no way of telling whether or not the “purported” negative effects of Ritalin can be directly attributable to the Course of Ritalin, especially in light of the passage of time and other factors to be taken into consideration which could reasonably be expected to have influenced the child. “It is an unknown”
But they will also argue that if 10 years later a child is now completely compliant, they will guarantee that the positive effects are directly attributable to the Course of Ritalin, notwithstanding the passage of time and other factors to be taken into consideration, factors which could reasonably be expected to have influenced the child. “there is scientific proof”.
The problem with this is that you may never know whether or not your child actually had any problem. Because if the child is given it very early and turns out to be normal, this could just mean that he was normal all along and still is normal but he was not adversely affected by being on small doses of speed for 10 years, notwithstanding the passage of time and other factors to be taken into consideration, factors which could reasonably be expected to have influenced the child. The child may have not been adversely affected because of extra love, care and attention.
Anyway how do we even know that the child is normal, yes i accept that the child may now lead a fully functional life but he may have been the next Einstein if we had just given him a chance, now he is no better or worse than anyone else. Has the drug worked or not???
It is difficult for a child of 3 tell you why they are unhappy or even if they are actually unhappy or not. Give a 3 year old a chocolate and ask him if he is happy with the way his life is at the moment. Take the Chocolate away and ask the same question using the exact same words, I think you can see where I am going.
No child should be prescribed Ritalin in any circumstances unless everyone including the parents, the teachers, psychiatrists and pscycolgists have all physically observed the child’s behaviour in each of the respective environments, home, school and socially. Only then can a balanced view or diagnoses, reasonable be made, if at all.
Ask yourself carefully if you are doing this for your child or because your child’s school wants it , or even it would just make your life a bit easier if he were calmer. If your Child is happy, don’t do it. Also if you Child is unhappy, don’t assume your child’s unhappiness is a symptom that requires treatment by a prescribed drug it could be a million reasons and I really cant see any justification for giving Ritalin to a child. Especially a Gifted Child. If we don’t want any geniuses in the world then prescribing Ritalin is the right thing to do.
Gifted children should not be held back in anyway whatsoever and every step possible should be taken to ensure that the child is able to reach their full potential. These children ADHD or not, are the Gifted few and brilliant future that will progress our world and society and change it forever, yes they may sometimes cut off an ear and this is certainly not considered “normal” or is actually probably more accurately, not understood by normal people. Regardless, these gifted people have changed the world and continue to change the world everyday and without them and their craziness we would not be where we are today. We should embrace their differences and allow them to be different no-matter how disruptive it may be to our lives.
I am sorry to go on and could go on for ages but the more I do the more difficult it becomes to maintain an objective view on the subject. I am trying hard not to be bias but it is difficult. I therefore suggest that you take my views as being a little bias but strongly suggest that you don’t ignore them.
Hi anon a mouse, I feel really sorry that you had to go through that. We have a HG VS son and the teachers at his previous school told me he had a problem concentrating/focussing (ADHD) and were going to bring an outside person in to observe him. That school did not believe or chose not to believe that our son was HG VS (even after 2 psych reports and obtaining entry into ODS. I am so glad we took our son to another school and he is just excelling. This school recognised and took note of his psych reports and his teacher has been fantastic. His restlessness in class has gone and he focusses and concentrates on tasks now. He sometimes has to be remindered about the task (obviously if it's one that doesn't interest him much) but apart from that it's 300% better. It was a matter of exciting him, letting him express his knowledge and creative side which has made the difference. I do think schools (some) have a lot to answer for. Glad things have worked out for you in the end.
I have just found this link and I read with the interest all the different classifications and nature of symptons and have to say, I don't want my children classified as either, as I feel this then locks them into this classification.
I have two boys (9 yr & 12 yr). My oldest is a classic gifted (97th %tile, never stops talking or asking questions, spells better than a spell checker and all other classic gifted). We have never had him tested and I wouldn't know where to start. His teacher has a problem because he can not be bothered doing homework, school work and if he does, does it a 100 mile an hour (no effort) just so he can get back to his books!
My 9yr - wow. Beautiful, delightful darling, but is major problems at school and home. He has no conception of time, will argue EVERY point with you (just to prove he does not have to do what he is asked to), do the exact opposite of what is required - although I think this more a case of you need to be VERY exact in your requirements (ie: instead of the sky is lovely and blue today - the sky is a lovely blue background, with some dark and light grey clouds, etc, etc). He gives the impression of a blank canvas, although is smiley, loveable and affectionate, appears to be ignoring you and not taking in anything, then corrects you if you read a book and miss the odd word (he will only have read it once) or if you have mentioned something in passing.
Trying to get my 9yr to write is impossible (he hates it) and you can spend two hours conjoling, arguing, pleading, growling just to get him to write his name (very frustrating). He is the master of procrastination and has a range of techniques to get out of doing anything!
All this makes life difficult with schooling (and home), as 9yr is not able to concentrate (or procrastinates so he appears that way - if he procrastinates enough, time is up and he does not have to do the work.. quite smart really). When the teacher has had enough and keeps him in at lunch, suddenly he ripes through the work.
The school had a special teacher assigned to him (thinking he was slightly below average intelligence - annoyed the hell out of me as I keep telling them he was very bright, they just wouldn't believe me). Without my permission, gave him an IQ test (to discover he was 35 points over the average for kids his age), and were forced to change their tactics.
All to no avail. As soon as a technique is found that gets him to produce work, he comes up with a new strategy to get out of doing this.
This is driving me nuts - one boy who is very bright, quick, and HATES being late or any adhoc (must know what we are doing, when, where), and the other who just appears as a blank canvas (does not really get emotional - just explodes when he has had enough), argues every point, will only start getting ready as we are walking out the door and frustrates the hell out me.
I have tried everything I can think (and have to admit he is getting slightly better as he gets older). I have every mechano / mechanical toy imaginable (my 9yr loves putting mechancial things together, puzzles, reading Horribile Science mags or other factural books) to try and encourage him, whilst also having lots of science sets, books, puzzles etc.
Both are interested in these, although my older one will read / do the puzzle or mechanical then look for a new interest after 5 / 10 mins, while my younger will forget life and spend all his time on this (won't do anything as everytime you stop watching him like a hawk to get him ready or do something, he is crouched on the floor buidling something or reading his science mags, or playing with a puzzle).
Any help to encourage either of them to actually participate in school would be very much appreciated (without labelling or putting them on drugs). The last comment is not meant to be disparaging to those who do, just my personal perferences.
I feel if I do not get my boys to start interacting with schoolwork now (especially my older boy - he recently won a highly recommended at the Manaku Science Fair for his work on Coronal Mass Ejections), then by the time they hit high school, I won't have a hope in hell of keeping them on the straight and narrow (I am a single parent - father in Aussie).
Strategies, techniques for dealing with two totally different kids much appreciated. I am tired of getting called into the school and listerning to the teachers tell me my kids can do better (I have been called in 4 times this year - twice for each boy).
A professional with a good understanding of GT/VS may be able to help you.
What look like behavioural issues and conscious avoidance tactics can easily develop in those who are VS when their differences arent recognised and needs arent meant - but that are actually attempts at self-preservation.
A child doing their best to cope.
VS is VERY common - it isnt a disability or a disorder - but it is a significant difference with regard to how one is "wired" and how one processes information internally. When we dont recognise that difference it leaves the child in a situation of trying to function in a way that is neurologically incompatible and that in itself causes "disruptions" to their internal processing.
But HOW someone copes really depends upon the person - eg an over-emphasis on "time concerns" can be a "compensation" technique for someone who lacks a natural internal understanding of time - but another person with the exact same lack of understanding may appear to be the opposite (not time conscious at all).
Just a question, have you had your daughter examined by a behavioural optomotetrist/SPELD or anything like that? Just because sometimes there can be an underlying visual based learning problem. The problem with very bright children is they find ways to compensate for their limitations so that things are not always picked up. I had been concerned about my son (age 6) in that he seemed to be showing some mildly ADD/ADHD type behaviours and not progressing as we had expected at school. School thought he was all fine. Anyhow we got him assessed and he has very poor eyesight tracking, plus poor eye teaming and a couple of other eye issues. His cognitive testing was high 98-99%ile. So now we are doing eye exercises daily and I think it is helping, its only early days yet. Just a red herring for you to consider as it has provided some answers for us, we were so unsure what was going on with him.
I'm currently reading `The Indigo Children' which discusses the relationship between ADHD and giftedness and is anti-Ritalin. The statistics of Ritalin use in the US are alarming. Has anyone here read this book and do they have anything to add - what about Ritalin use in NZ, is it as prevalent?
Hi, I was in a similar positon as you and did not want to go down the drug path (ritilan). However after 2 years of seeing my boy go backwards at school, and him telling me I can't concentrate, there are two many questions and answers going around in my head, I decided to trial ritilan. It has been great for my son. He now can concentrate much better and is achieving such high marks at school. School has also seen such a huge improvement with his behaviour. He is only on a very low dosage and does not take it in the weekends or holidays.
I agree with another writer who has said that ritalin(rubifen) has made a noticable change for the better in their child. We had to do something else and decided to try it. We also use a relatively low dose, and don't usually use it weekends and holidays. It has helped his concentration/distractibility. There are plenty of people that will tell you you're some sort of child abuser for "drugging" your child. Make a considered decision and know you've done the right thing for now.
Thanks for posting those anecdotes. The question of whether or not to medicate is yet another 'controversial' issue facing parents who are simply doing the best for their children. It's always great to see parents doing what they know is best for their children, and, not being afraid to say to.
Forgetful, messy, disorganised, has melt downs, bad at spelling, doesn't like writing... these are all also symptoms of dyspraxia and dysgraphia. My son has both and all the symptoms above. Talk to an occupational therapist because if that's the problem, there's lots that can be done and there are no drugs involved!
